Welcome to the Dr. Stacey Show, where we're talking about all things faith, love, and wellness as it relates to raising our kids. I'm your host, Dr. Stacey, and today's episode, we are sitting with Abrena Wright. Abrena is a licensed associate counselor in New Jersey and Pennsylvania with a diverse background spanning school counseling, college and career readiness, outpatient therapy, and crisis screening. Abrena holds a master's degree in public administration and school counseling, as well as an education specialist degree in professional counseling. She's a national certified counselor and a certified New Jersey crisis screener. With over ten years of experience working in public and charter school settings, Abrena has also served in the community mental health and provided contracted mental health services within schools. Abrena, we are so excited to have you here today. Hi, I'm so excited to be here. Well, Abrena, in our pre-show, I just got excited because we are going to be talking today about school counseling. And it's interesting because you just shared with me a fun fact that we can no longer call our school folks guidance counselors. Yes. In the state of New Jersey, the wonderful New Jersey Association of School Counselors have worked really, really hard for a number of years to pass legislation in New Jersey that our official title now is is school counselor, no longer guidance counselor. So I just want to say kudos to everyone who worked really hard. So, so Abrena, and that brings me to my really first question here, because I know with working with parents, the biggest concern is a lot of parents really don't understand what school counseling is, how counselors can help their children. And then what, what is that difference between a school counselor and mental health counselors in the community? Yeah, it's no problem. So school counseling, we focus on three main components, academics, college and career, and social emotional health. So in the elementary and middle school age, school counselors have a larger percentage and focus on that mental health component and not so much the college and career and academic piece. Once they transition into high school, it actually flips. So the percentage that counselors should focus on academics and college and career increases, you know, astronomically, just because it's on the high school level and we're getting you prepared for life after school. Then The difference between school counselors and mental health counselors. School counselors can provide mental health counseling, but it's only short term. So a school counselor should only meet with a student one-on-one for maybe six to eight weeks. Once that timeframe is up and we feel as though that you need additional support, that's when we refer you to a mental health counselor, which is someone who will be doing outpatient services with you for a longer period of time. And you just answered in just that two minutes. some of the things that parents I know struggle with, because again, you're an outpatient therapist as well. So, you know, people come in and they're like, why didn't my school counselor, why are they not helping my high school student with mental health things? Or why is it only short term? And I think it's so key for us to understand the differences in the service, but even that's not us being individual saying that your child can't have services. That's really the scope of what school counseling looks like. Yeah, and there's a lot on our plates. You know, the average, and I'm not sure if they increased it or not, but even the National Association of School Counselors recommends for school counselors to have two hundred and fifty students to one counselor. And that's not the norm. No. But even still, you know, some people only have two children like myself and like you. Two is more than enough. Yes. So for me to be responsible for two hundred and fifty children at one time, there's no way we can even counsel two hundred and fifty children in one school year. And it's a large caseload to have. And so, you know, the school counselor has a smaller load. I know they're happy, but it's a lot of work. And I've worked in schools where I've had five hundred children and I was the only counselor there in the building. Yes, you have social workers. However, sometimes your social workers don't necessarily always do the counseling piece either. But once again, in a school of five hundred, how many students can we actually counsel in one school year? Right. And that is such a valid point because I've worked in a school as well. That is the expectation. Parents are like, but you're the school counselor, but not recognizing, yes, I'm the school counselor for this building. But right, we had six hundred children that we had to either push into small groups because about even just your touch points of kids that have to have it based on IEPs or five or four plans like we're there are a certain number that have to have the services, first of all. And then you've kind of got what your leftover, quote, quote, spots, not to mention your daily crisis and emergencies that pop up into your schedule every day. And sometimes there are regulars, which we love dearly. But yeah, you have your regulars who are going to come in as well and take up your day and your time. So let's talk about the regulars in the sense of and let's talk about school counseling as part of school plans, because I also hear that as a concern from parents and say, you know, my child has an identified disability. They have an IEP. Why are they not getting counseling as per their IEP? It might be something that the school or the child study team hasn't thought of. But typically, if they do get counseling, they should be getting counseling from the child study team, whoever that may be. So it might be the school psychologist. It might be the school social worker. And sometimes there are also two different parts. So some schools may have a school social worker that deals with resources. Some people have a child study team social worker that And that's the person that does counseling. So it also depends on the social worker and the school structure as to when you have counseling. But it's very, very rare if a school counselor is put into the child's IEP for counseling. Thank you for saying that so clearly. Again, parents, we are going to be answering these questions today because, again, there's misconception about the services and provision, and that misconception causes frustration for parents. And even as you just identified, because oftentimes on the IEPs, right, it's the social workers, the school psychologists, it's specific people within that structure that's identified as If your student absolutely has to have counseling as part of it. And then one of the things also, Abrina, you and I were talking a few weeks ago and this idea about accommodations. Can you talk a little bit to parents about what the difference is between the IEP and the Sure. So a five Oh four means that there is something that is impeding upon your child's learning. It is a legal document and it follows them a little further actually than an IEP will. The five Oh four actually can travel with them to college, whereas an IEP typically stops on the high school level once you graduate from high school. So a five Oh four can look like someone who has ADHD. If it's very severe, then the school may believe that they might need to be tested to see if their IQ and other components meet the standards for the school district in order to get an individualized educational plan. But if not, then there are, you know, five or fours. And it depends on what the situation is. I will give you a quick story that I experienced. I had a student. They went on vacation. She went on vacation with her family. Her little brother chokes on some food. She gets freaked out, doesn't want to eat, nervous and scared to eat, which is normal. Went to the doctor that Monday when they came back. The doctor said, oh, she has anxiety. She needs a five or four. That's not the criteria for a five or four. Why? Because the anxiety was not impeding upon her learning. She was still raising her hand, participating in school. Her grades did not slip at any point in time because she was afraid to eat. And even though she was eating trail mix and not eating the foods that we wanted her to eat, she was getting some type of nutrients in her body. And so at that time, because it was not impeding upon her learning, There was no need for us to put in this legal document that would have followed her for at least the rest of that school year to say that she needed accommodations for her academic learning. Why? Because she was fine. She was just a normal kid scared to eat. And it happens. Yes. I love that example, though, Abrina, because what you're focusing on, I tell parents all the time. Just because a child has even an identified disability, it has to impede learning for the school plans to be put in place. And key, parents, please make sure you did not miss it when you said the five or four is legal can go through into college versus that IEP that even stops K through twelve because IEPs are just for the K through twelve environment. Abrina, talk a little bit about the process in most schools, because you said something as well. If that team identifies, how do parents even start the process for looking at a Final Four and IEP in most school districts? So most school districts, five or fours are a little bit easier to obtain. They might not like me saying this, but they are. They're a little bit easier to obtain, typically because schools will have to just go through the process. And oftentimes we can take just a doctor's note that says, hey, this child has been diagnosed with ADHD. Perfect. And I would like my child to have a five or four. And then we can typically start that process. For an IEP, it is a little bit different. School districts oftentimes would like for you to be referred to I and RS. So intervention and referral services. But when we say it really fast, it's I and RS. And that is a six to eight week process where we're typically looking at the child for at least one marking period. And a team of teachers, administrators, one person from the child study team will come together. They'll write up this plan and different interventions. And so we're going to try and see, hey, if we just give them a little bit of help here or there, will that actually make a difference? If it does not make a difference, then that INRS team can refer the child to the child study team. From there, the child study team has ninety days to do their evaluation period to see if they do need an IEP or not. What typically happens, and parents get really upset about this, is where they'll write a letter, because that's what we're told, write a letter, and they have to evaluate them if you write the letter. That's not true. They legally just have to give you a meeting to talk about your letter, And once again, the child study team can say, hey, we don't have enough information on this kid. We're actually going to refer them to INRS and start the process with INRS first to see if that works. And then we can go through the process. So it's tough at times, but it is a process nevertheless to try to get help. And so one thing I love, you just said the process, right? So, Abrena, even the idea, right, you write your note, you wait your thirty days or whatever for your meeting, you have your meeting, and then we could be referred to INRS, which is another six to eight weeks. And INRS is that team at the school level that's putting accommodations in place. It's not like they're doing nothing during this process. They're putting things in place to see if it actually helps. And then INRS comes back to me to discuss whether or not those interventions work that they were able to put in place. And then let's say those interventions work. Is the decision for the INRS team then to say we don't need a five or four or an IEP? What happens if the interventions for INRS does works for that family or that child? And then the child stays on the INRS team until the end of the year. And then the teachers will just continue to implement those plans oftentimes. Perfect. I've been on those INRS team meetings. And so that's why I was like, I was like, Irina, just tell them it's okay. That means we're still, because you're right. Parents get frustrated when they're not, when they're told they don't, they're not getting a plan, but not realizing that the intervention of INRS is essentially what you need is the interventions. And if the child starts to, Again, we eliminate where the learning was being impacted. We now have interventions that the teachers are aware of, the parent is aware of, the child is using, and we're starting to see success in the classroom. Then that IRS basically did their job, right? That's really what it is. Yeah. And it's a process just like anything else. And it's frustrating, right? Because who loves a process? No one. No one. Even in our own personal lives, as we grow as people, we don't like the process of doing anything. But it is a process nevertheless, so that we can collect data is trial and error. seeing what works. And it's just, I don't know, I'm going through the newborn phase now where my son's not eating and we are doing trial and error and it's a process, what he likes and doesn't like. And so it's very similar to going back to that phase in early parenting. We're just doing it now. You have a community that's helping you to do it. And so let me just, I'm going to do like a timeline for parents that are listening, right? So let's say it's the beginning of the school year, usually by September, October is when we start to have these conversations of whether or not, usually by October is when my phone starts ringing, right? Everybody's settled in, the honeymoon's over. Yes. Let's say you're starting this, you know, you're as a parent, you write this letter, let's say October, by November, you know, the first week or so you have a meeting, right? We start to put interventions in place by January. I always say the kids go on break and then they come back. It does take sometimes even for an IEP, because even at this point, we then would have ninety days to actually do all of the assessments necessary. So we've actually almost gone through a school year for an IEP is even implemented and in place. And I always tell families by March or April. is when even if we started in October, it's great to have the INRS. It's great to have interventions in place, even like you said, even if it's a five Oh four and let's give that some time to work because that's still a legal document. That's right. helping your child to be successful and I do want to add in for my autism autistic parents because there is um there's that struggle and the wall is getting the diagnosis of autism yes Sometimes a back doorway that people try to use is by getting the neurologist appointment first and then bringing in the paperwork to say, hey, my child's been diagnosed with autism. Can I get the IEP now? And if your child is high functioning, they may not get an IEP. They may get a five or four. Yes. To give them accommodations. Yes. So that is also something to think about, too. They might not always get that IEP, which sometimes, depending on certain parents, means a check. But that does not mean that. Right. They might just get that five or four as well. So understanding that whatever wherever they are on the spectrum doesn't necessarily always mean either that they will get. your intended end result. And that could also be ADHD. That could be a child with anxiety. That could be a child, you know, again, seizure disorder. Like, again, you're talking about, yes, we may have an identified disability, but does it impede the learning? I have many autistic and neurodivergent families that I work with where their children are doing well with the Because academically, they don't qualify for special education, right? So they don't need a two-teacher classroom. They don't need a small classroom setting. They're actually in gifted and honors programming. But they do need help with the time constraints. They do need help with vague language, for example. So the five-oh-four actually does help with the things that we're seeing in addition to academics and the behavior. Yes. Thank you for bringing up that point, because that's that. Yeah, it is hard and it's hard to find appointments sometimes to get that diagnosis. So once again, it goes back to your faith. Yeah. In some places, especially in New Jersey right now. I mean, we're just seeing that up. I know I do ADOS assessments and that alone. Right. It's not enough often to even, you know, it starts the process and it's an assessment and a screening process. But right. For this process, though, it could be a year. It could be an entire school year. And so parents, that's not going into the summer. Right. The evaluations into the summer. Yeah, it will. The psychologist will call you and say, hey, I need you to bring this child in for the summer so we can do what we need to do. And the fact that we say that oftentimes by the time we get to March and April, then what we're talking about is actually going to be implemented for the next school year. Because we're already at the end. And I know that's very frustrating for parents. But I also say, but you did the work, right? Yes, it takes about a school year. Give your school that grace. They're following the legalities of all the guidelines and timelines. No one's working against you. but it is that process. Talk to me a little bit, Abrena, and, you know, the idea, the difference between what we can do with the five Oh four and the IEP, because that's the other sticking point for Paris. They're like, why can't my five Oh four give him less, you know, questions. It, it, okay. So how I like to describe, I'm about to go back really quickly. So how I like to describe a five Oh four versus the IEP is, It's like taking the staircase to get to the same platform, if we think about it that way. So everyone still has to reach that platform, whether you're taking five steps to get there or you're taking a ramp to get there. Nevertheless, you're still taking these steps. So general education students might have ten steps to get to the ramp. My five or four students to the platform, my five or four students may have five steps instead of the full ten. Why? Because they might be able to hand in that test over again or revisions. They might be able to do get up a little bit more often than my other students may be able to. And then the ramp is for my IEP students. But that doesn't mean that they still don't have to work hard because if anyone has ever walked up a ramp. OK, it's not easy. Yeah. It is not easy to walk up a ramp either. They're still having to do the work. It just looks different in how we get to that platform. And so it's OK if they don't get five questions or they get ten. And to be honest, in education, teachers are going above and beyond. They are making accommodations for students who do not have a five or four. There might not even be an INRS. So teachers are going above and beyond and doing a lot of accommodations that are in plans that we don't even realize today. Yeah. And it's interesting how many teachers, and I always say this as a college professor, they're not actually helping in high school, but for example, a lot of the high school kids have extra time on stuff, right? Like the teachers let them have extra time and they don't even have a plan. Yes. That late work. But I think that's a beautiful way to describe that five of four versus an IEP, because right, the students still have the same educational expectations and how they get their changes based on their individual needs with an IEP. And many times, you know, the idea that it's individual, I tell parents, that's about your child. And so being able to even have problem solving as a therapist, I know I work with families to really get to the bottom of, you know, for example, what's difficult with writing an ELA, not just, oh, he needs support, but like to know, hey, maybe it is about the print being too small or typing versus writing. Or, you know, I've had students, with math they could do the problems but it was just too many visually overwhelming when there's forty on the page you do five at a time on a page and they could still do it right so right hearing from the student with those accommodations um and interventions because that's also different right accommodations we're accommodating changing the work mod i'm sorry modifications with an iep we might be modifying the work making changes to the work And then with the five Oh four, we're just helping to help do the work and accommodating them. So yeah, I love this staircase. And then I know, Again, from working with parents on this side, give parents an idea when we talk about, I love how you said earlier, the elementary versus the high school. Elementary age school counseling, what does that possibly look like for families if their counselor has flexibility, space, and services? Lots of hugs. No, I'm kidding. They do. They're very lovey-dovey on the elementary level because that's what children need in nurturing. Yes. Our biggest component is that social emotional piece. They are learning how to become social. They are learning how to regulate their emotions. They're not saying that they have it all together by high school. However, these are the building block years. And so your school counselor is going to have way more games. more fluffy pillows, a lot more patience and time when it comes to crying. They're going to sit on the floor probably a lot more than your high school counselor will sit on the floor with you and work something out. So that is a really big difference between elementary. And they're not going to focus on their grades as much. We may notice if someone's failing, but we're going to go right back into what's that social emotional piece. They oftentimes deal with a lot of behavioral students sometimes because it's the social emotional piece that we're dealing with a lot. They're not going to see if your child is going to pass the first grade. They might hear it, but it's not as pressing for them to pull them in and to help them make up all of their work like they would on a high school level. um that's great because you know it's funny i served when i worked as a school counselor and it's funny because parents would ask what their grades were and i'm like we have to talk to the teacher like right that's not even my scope like my skin can your baby stay in class how are we doing when it comes to tests and being able to play at recess with other people because recess is that big you know elopement running out of class those types of things we're dealing with the elementary level um And I love that you talked about, again, that difference with high school expectations, because, right, the switch for school counselors then is also more the academic, getting them into college, making sure they have their credits. So you kind of become almost like a case management of graduation at that point. And what your life is going to look like afterwards. This is where they start to critically think, OK. I'm going to maybe be at my parents' house in four years. What do I want to do? What's realistic for me? And now we have so many avenues and streams and platforms. And so before we would get a lot of, I want to be a doctor or a lawyer. And now we're getting, I want to be a YouTuber. I want to be a YouTuber. Now we're like, okay. Does that mean you need to go into graphic design and maybe get a certification in that? Do we need to go into maybe video production so you can learn how to edit your videos a lot better? So it's pulling out a lot more creativity within us to say, how can we support our students and bringing in these careers that they can relate to so that they can see themselves in other people and make the decision so that they can support themselves? Absolutely. And I want, this is the question that I always get from parents and I want to hear your So talk to the parent that's afraid to get their child any help in school because they feel like it's going to be on their kid's record. Deep breath. Yes. Yes. It is a deep breath. That's a big one. Especially not wanting, because it's going to follow them wherever they go. Yep. Yes. And, but it hurts the child more than it helps them. Yeah. at the end of the day, because your baby is suffering and they need to be able to learn certain skills while they're in school, basic math skills. Our children are struggling from, I'm gonna say second grade now, from second until high school with basic math skills, multiplication and division. They can't do it. And so you're worried about something following them, which it really doesn't. And honestly, it becomes a pride thing for the parent. So I will question them to understand what their process is. Okay, can you share with me why is this a concern for you? And that's when the school counselor has to talk to the parent and counsel the parent a little bit and say like, hey, but this is what's happening. And so my staircase example is what I've used with my parents time and time again, especially when I've had parents who have taken away an IEP and their child really needs it. Yeah. And they're suffering in that point. And I love that you say, because I always... would answer that question to parents. Well, the records are my records and they actually don't go like my notes don't go in their school record. Right. And even if you have records stay at the building, you know, and looking at. So many years. Yeah. Right. When we shred them after so many years. Right. It's like a three year or five year or something like that record shredding process. And you have to label the drawers and all that. But I think that's so key for parents to understand that the help is in the moment and it's for that school year. And the people that are on those teams, then, yes, they'll have access to being able to have access to the meetings and talking and you'll have access to them. But in regards to like his, you know, sophomore math teacher having his elementary school records, no, that doesn't happen. And it doesn't travel to college either. So one thing I was big on was partnering with therapists because I always believed in having a holistic approach to my students and making sure that what was happening in therapy, I could implement in my office when they came to me. I didn't want to provide one coping skill, but they were working on another one. in their weekly or bi-weekly sessions with their therapist. And so I think sometimes realizing too that we don't send it up unless there's a problem. But once again, we're doing it, calling the elementary school to be like, hey, what happened with this kid? We're noticing these signs. How can we partner, once again, to make this educational experience the best that it can be for this student. Because at the end of the day, we want to see them succeed. And I do that all the time as outpatient therapist. I'm talking to principals. I'm talking to guidance counselors. Of course, a parent and sign releases. School counselors, Dr. Stace. I'm sorry. Sorry. School counselors. Yeah. School counselors. Look, even I just messed up, right? But and again, but with signed releases, so it's no information transfers until that parent or guardian signs a release that we can communicate. But that communication, as you pointed out, is really for the continuity of care to make sure that we're all doing the same thing, that we are creating this village of support around our children. So, Abrena, you have been dropped in so many gyms, so this will be a hard question, but what is kind of your final thought, your final giveaway? What would you want to tell parents today as we close? that school counselors, we're here to partner with you. We're not here to be mean. We're not here to get you in trouble. We're not here to make you look bad. We are really here for you. And the cool part about school counselors, we don't care about teachers or principals. We don't. Like our job is strictly just for the child. So if we have to go back toe to toe with a principal to say, hey, no, I don't think my kid deserved this punishment. We do and we should. So we're really here to partner with you. So call us up. Befriend us. Let us know who you are. And we're going to look out for your babies. Trust me, we will. But just give us some time and we'll get to you. I love that. No, I was the same way. Like I was like, I don't care about the teacher. That's right. This is what we're putting in place for this baby. I love it. All right. So before you go, everybody has to humor me because Proverbs seventeen twenty two, a joyful heart is good medicine. So I have my Laffy Taffy candy and I lost it somewhere over here, but I do know what the joke is. All right. So here's our joke. You ready? Yes. Why did the GPS coordinate get in trouble at school? Why did the GPS coordinate get in trouble at school? GPS because it kept rerouting. Oh, that's good. That's close. That's close. He had a bad latitude. Oh, all right. So, Abrina, how can people get in touch with you? What's a way for them to contact you? Getting support with school stuff, counseling stuff, IEP, mental health services. I know you do speaking engagements, all the things. How can they get in touch with you? So I have an Instagram and a TikTok. It is called the right counselor. And right is my last name. So the Wright, W-R-I-G-H-T, counselor. And I am on Instagram and TikTok. I love it. All right, folks, before we go, we're going to do our Love Our Babies Well send-off segment today. And as we talked about today, supports are available for our babies in school. And I love how Urbina said that we need to work together with the schools, parents trusting the process. It can take time. It is a long process. But in the end, you are advocating for your child and for what they need. What we can learn from one another is that working together helps our child in the long run and being able to see supports not as a weakness, not as something that's going to hurt our child, but things that set our child up for success. Parents, thanks so much for tuning in today to the Dr. Stacey Show. Until next time, keep the faith, love the babies, and pursue wellness.
